From: mike Subject: Re: SUMMARY: Log Home info request. Newsgroups: misc.rural >I received a number of requests for posting a summary on this topic, >so here are the responses I got. Thanks to those that responded to my >original post. This is a LONG post. > >*********************************************************************** > >Can't answer your specific questions, but my wife and I have had a bad >experience with one log home company. We put a down payment on a kit with >the company's assurance that we would have no trouble finding a builder. If >necessary, they had builders that we could contract. Surprise, surprise, >none of our local contractors wanted to bother with a log home kit. They >didn't know much about them, and weren't much interested in learning about >them. When we went back to the company, they called a builder in to talk >with us, who guaranteed quick work when we were ready to start. Several >months, and many phone calls later, none of them returned, we decided to >cancel our contract. It was only after contacting the state better business >bureau that we were able to get a portion of our down payment back. > >Moral to this story: Be sure you have a competent builder lined up before >you purchase a log home kit. > >***************************************************************************** > >I asked the net about log homes a while back and I've attached the >responses I got. Bottomline, spend some $ for brochures from several >vendors, spend some $ at the bookstores and some time in the library. >And take a lot of what salesmen say with a grain of salt :-) > > I have no experience first-hand with log homes, but I have just finished >building a log storage shed for myself. The inside dimensions are about 14 x >14 feet, with 5-1/2 foot walls. The roof is about 11 feet above the floor. >Location is in Danby NY, a small town south of Ithaca (home of Cornell Univ), >centrally isolated in south-central NY state. > > Here are a few things to think about for log homes. > >Things that the contractors and distributors should already know: > >1) logs should be cut in winter. Winter-cut logs, according to many >generations of wisdom and experience in Europe, last up to twice as long as >summer-cut logs. Whereas there is debate about why this is so, one of the >reasons given is that winter-cut logs tend to dry more slowly. Of course, >log home kits may have kiln-dried logs, which obviates the need for cutting >the logs in winter. Logs from the southeast don't have much of a winter to >experience anyway, unlike logs up here. > >2) Logs should be stripped as quickly as possible. Again, this probably is >no problem with a kit. If you are going to use pine logs, pine sawyers are >notorious insects, and once the weather warms up consistently into the 50's, >you can expect these beetles to be laying their eggs under the bark. The >larvae are extremely destructive, boring into the centers of the logs. The >holes are a good 1/4 inch in diameter. The beetles must lay their eggs under >the bark, so if the logs are stripped prior to the beetles coming around, >your logs are safe. > >3) Logs never die. Logs tend to work as the seasons go by, moving a little >bit here and there. I don't know how kiln-dried logs perform, but naturally >dried ones will move about. This makes it a little difficult at times in the >construction phase if the logs are tongue-and-grooved to provide a good seal. >The tongue and/or groove may be straight when the log leaves the factory, but >it may no longer be straight when you're ready to put them together. This >will also lead to you never having an airtight house. > >4) A dry log is a happy log. It is important that logs be protected from the >wet elements, especially if situated in a location prone to periods of >wet/humid weather. The eaves should extend at least 2 feet from the wall, >the further they extend, the less rain/snow will hit the logs and make them >wet. Wet logs will tend to decay, especially since logs check (split). >Water that gets down in a crack can have a hard time getting back out, >especially in a humid environment. This introduces a wonderful breeding home >to fungi, and you may wake up some morning to see shelf-fungi growing on your >house. The roof is quite important. > >5) In the same vain, the logs should not be laying on the ground. Even if >you can use black locust or chestnut or cedar, logs in contact with the >ground will invariably decay (unless they are in a bog). A rule of thumb >that I have heard is that the bottom log should be at least 10 inches above >ground. > >6) The chinking is very important. Since the logs work, hard chinking such >as mortar or even dried mud may be subject to cracking and certainly won't >expend to fill the gaps. There is a material out on the market these days >that is pliable. It's not oakum, > >Things that others may not quite know: > >1) logs with a right-hand twist will not check and move like those with a >left-hand twist. Again, this is a piece of European wisdom. > >2) log buildings in colder climates last longer than those in warmer >climates. It is probably not so much the temperature as the humidity >gradient that is most important. > >3) pine is easy to work with, and not as heavy as other logs. However, while >pine is a good log-building wood, it is not the best. Oak will outlast pine, >but is more expensive and certainly heavier. Larch is also a good >log-building wood, being somewhere between oak and pine. White pine is >better than red pine. I don't know how Douglas fir stands. Black locust is >also a good wood, but the trees tend not to grow straight since they are >shade intolerant and grow best when grown in the open. > > >All in all, logs homes are different. You should really want to live in one >and enjoy a rustic home if you want a log home. My own personal philosophy >says that we should be able to live off of the land we own as much as >possible. My shed was a 9 month project, starting with felling my own white >pines in January and February. It was a lot of work, and my knees are still >not quite back to normal (from climbing up and down the walls several hundred >times), but it was a lot of fun and a good learning experience. I am hoping >to build a timber-frame building in the next few years. Whatever you decide >to do, best of luck and enjoy retirement. I can't wait until I can retire in >another 30 years or earlier if I'm lucky. > >***************************************************************************** > >This is a *VERY* long post. Feel free to bail out at any time! > >>I'm going to be in the market for a new home in the next few months (finally >>moving out of town, yea!), and I'm quite attracted to these log homes I've >>seen in magazines. There's actually very little information available about >>them, however, beyond that furnished by manufacturers themselves in their >>books, advertising, etc. Can anyone give me any pointers, major do's and >>don't, advantages/disadvantages, about these structures? >> >>One reason is not just their charm and ruggedness, but the fact that for the >>same money, your standard wood-frame tract house these days is built like a >>piece of junk, unless you're able to spend several hundred thousand bucks. >> >>A few factors: this is a pretty hot, humid climate, in south central Texas. >>Resistance to termites would be quite critical. Also, this would probably be >>a three-bedroom mother-in-law plan on a single floor, if that makes any >>difference. >> >>I would be *especially* eager to hear from someone who actually *lives* (or >>has lived) in one. > >Last year at this time, I was arranging financing to get my log house built. >We moved in on December 20, 1990. (We looked in the Farmer's Almanac to find >the *worst* possible day to move in. The high for the day was -15F.) > >Information: There are two magazines, Log Home Living and one other, that are >commonly available on newstands in the United States, which deal exclusively >with log homes. They are evangelical about log houses, and do not present >a balanced viewpoint. Nonetheless, they provide quite a bit of valuable >information. Also, one of the university agircultural extension services in >Texas (I forget which) provides information on maintaining and preserving the >logs in warm, humid climates such as yours. NIST (National Institute of >Standards and Testing) has several technical publications on the thermal >characteristics of log buildings. > >The log home industry can be divided up arbitrarily in a variety of different >ways. In my opinion, one of the first divisions is that between handcrafted >logs and milled logs. Most of the "manufacturers" supply milled log systems >of one kind or another. Some of the handcrafters advertise, but not nearly >as extensively. Handcrafting tends to be more of a cottage industry, whereas >a big milled log vendor may have a large production operation with dealers >all over the country. > >Log homes may be further categorized into log style and corner joint style. >Rare in the West, but common in the Appalachians is a square hewn log with >dovetail corners. Various kinds of "solid wall" systems may also be called >log construction (e.g., Lindal Cedar homes), but they don't really qualify, >in my opinion. Stick-built homes with half log siding are also offered. >These may be marketed as a "super insulated" log house, and they are very >attractive, but they do not depend on logs for their structure. > >Milled logs may also be available in systems with 2 sides (top and bottom) >flat, 3 sides (top and bottom and interior) flat, coped (referred to variously >as Swedish, Norwegian or Scandinavian cope: the bottom of the log has a >hollow milled along its length so as to fit closely over the log underneath >it), and full round. Many employ tongue-in-groove or other systems to improve >sealing. Corner joints are usually butt-and-pass for systems with flat sides >or saddle notched for coped and full round systems. Butt-and-pass involves >having the logs around the structure all at the same level, i.e., the seam >in a north wall will match up to a seam in a west wall. Where two logs come >together at a corner, one butts up against the side of the other one which >"passes" and sticks out in the familiar log house style. To make saddle >notches, the logs must be staggered - one of any two adjacent walls starts >out with a half-log on the bottom, so that subsequent seams are separated by >the width of half a log. At the corner, the higher log has a notch cut into >it to fit over the log coming from the other direction. With butt-and-pass, >there are spaces the height of one log between the ends that stick out in one >direction. With saddle notches, all logs in both directions stick out. >Unlike toy Lincoln Logs, a notch should never be cut into the lower log on a >corner. Such a joint will tend to hold water if it is driven into the joint. >True saddle notches are self draining. > >Variations on these systems exist, but most are similar and recognizable as >being based on one of the above. > >Most handcrafters work in either full round or coped styles, with saddle >notches. A true handcrafted log house uses hand peeled logs running the >full length of each wall with no butt joints. As a result, a crane of some >kind is usually used to set a handcrafted shell, since the logs are very >difficult to handle manually. Shorter logs may be used where doors and >windows will be placed, so that a butt joint is still avoided. This may >also limit placement of a handcrafted house, since it may be impossible to >get a log truck with 44' logs to the desired site in rough terrain. Milled >logs are usually supplied in 8' to 16' lengths, and it is possible to place >them by hand or with much smaller equipment. > >Handcrafters will often rough-cut and stack the shell in their yards prior >to setting it on your foundation. Setting our shell with a boom truck took >less than a day and a half. > >Costs and quality: You get what you pay for. Tract homes offer economies >of scale not generally found in constructing a custom home in the boonies. >If you are contemplating a complete custom home, you can make it as nice as >you want, but it won't be cheap. Cheaper log home "kits" provide smaller >logs (which give you both less insulation and less thermal mass) and less of >the stuff you need to finish your house. Tradespeople will not drive out to >your house for free. They don't consider it a priviledge to visit you. > >It is entirely possible to get an inexpensive kit, do a lot of work yourself, >and finish the house to tract home standards. This can get you a nice house >at reasonable cost, but may take you years of evenings and weekends, by >which time you will have paid an enormous amount of interest on your >construction loan, and you'll be so sick of it that you'll be ready to burn >it down. And that cultured marble bathroom that looked so practical and >attractive? Forget it - many $$$! Tongue-in-groove pine on the walls and >ceilings? $$$! Exposed beams and/or purlins? $$$$$! R-38 or R-44 built-up >roof system so that you can have vaulted ceilings and insulation? $$$. >Custom cabinets? $$$$. The best appliances? $$$. Hardwood floors? $$$$! >Slate hearth? Antique brass light fixtures? Custom-built doors? $$$$$$$!! >These things have nothing to do with it being a log home. They are good and >beautiful items which raise the price of any house, and which you might want >in order to raise your house out of the tract-home morass. > >If you start with a vendor offering logs of 9" or more, pay a contractor >familiar with the system to put it up and finish it out beautifully, and >add the extras you want, it will be better than a tract home, it will look >better than a tract home, and it will cost more than a tract home. What >about the cost of the well? How close is power? People building in the >suburbs don't have to think about this. > >So the bad news is that you're probably not going to get out of this cheap, >despite what the dealers try to tell you. Has anyone given you a COMPLETE >turn-key quote? If so, do you have all the bids and cost breakdowns? >Without these, it's not a quote - it's a blue-sky guess. If it's based >on anything, it's based on how someone else had a house sort of like yours >done. When you get a complete quote with all the bid information, you'll >begin to have some idea of the cost of what you want. Then you have to >find out what they left out. A good contracter will tell you; a poor one >may let you find out in mid-construction. Don't mislead them about what >you've done or expect to do. Document everything. Don't mislead yourself. >Will it take you three hours to do what a master carpenter does in one? Is >your time only worth $4-$5/hour? > >There are always unexpected costs. Be prepared. Have several thousand >dollars "headroom" in your construction loan and your permanent financing >so you can cope. This usually means, actually, that you have to have more >of your own money up front. It's a custom home. The contractor has never >built one exactly like it before. By the way, only hire a contractor who >has worked with the particular log system you are using. Minimize surprises >all around. > >The good news is that, if you (and the contractor) do it right, you'll love >living in it, even though you're in hock up to your nose hairs. > >Weathertightness, insulation, etc.: Log structures move. Period. Even a >6" milled log (too small for anything except a vacation cottage) is a large >piece of wood. Logs expand and contract with temperature and humidity. The >structure will settle noticeably in the first year, and because of temperature >and humidity changes, *it never stops moving*! Therefore construction >techniques and sealing systems must take this into account. In particular, >I do not believe systems dependent on small beads of caulk or thin foam >strips can be expected to perform well. The logs move too much and will tend >to break the seal. Tongue-and-groove systems may seal well but are often >difficult to assemble because the logs have changed shape slightly since >they were milled. Logs with the top and bottom milled flat often do not fit >together as nicely as the drawing suggest. Logs are simply not dimensionally >stable. > >This is why I selected a full round handcrafted builder. My bias is evident. >The logs are actually set with a little space in between. The gap is sealed >with a substance derived from the commercial concrete construction industry >(big pieces of concrete are not dimensionally stable, either.). It's modified >to look like traditional morter chinking. It's rubbery, it moves with the >logs, and it is placed in large enough beads to accommodate movement. > >Some other systems would also work, I believe, but I am quite sure that many >systems being sold today are more difficult to work with than they look and >may be prone to failure. > >Care must be taken in sealing external checks in the logs, particularly those >which face up and may hold water. Checks which run into window and door >frames may provide entry points for air, water and insects, whether they face >up or down. In warm or damp climates, insect infestation may be a particular >concern, and log houses in such areas will require a lot of maintenance. > >I live where insects and decay are not problems. However, my house is >occasionally exposed to extremely severe weather. Rain may be accompanied >by very high winds of 60 mph or more, driving water into any check facing the >wind. If the check doesn't connect to anything, the dry climate in the >Rockies will soon dry it out. If it connects to a window opening or another >check in another log, the wind may be able to drive water into the house. >As a result, my house must be more tightly sealed than most. Just last week, >we had 4" of rain in one hour, accompanied by high winds. It's not that >unusual. Houses built in certain coastal areas would have to be sealed with >similar care. > >Larger logs provide more insulation than smaller ones. Log houses also >depend on the thermal capacity of their walls much more than stick-built >houses. A 9" log gives no more insulation value than the wall of the >average cheap tract house. However, it holds a lot more heat. It will be >slow to heat up and will re-radiate the heat as it cools down. If your >climate is consistantly hot, this will make it difficult to cool the house >at night with just a fan. If you have air conditioning, on the other hand, >thus preventing the interior of your logs from getting hot in the first >place, the air conditioning load will be less at night than it would be with >a stick-built house. This works the other way around in the winter. It is >relatively easy to keep the house warm overnight, but difficult to heat it >up if you allow it to get too cold. Our house is positioned for considerable >solar gain, so that it hoards heat nicely in the winter. The summer heat >is rarely a problem. We have operable skylights and a ceiling fan in the >stairwell to pull heat out of the house. > >A heavily insulated roof system is essential. > >Our house: (Sorry. I have to gave the basis for my experience and opinions, >but I'll brag a little, too.) Handcrafted, full round construction. Log >diameter 9"-14". Lodgepole pine harvested in northern Colorado. Weathershield >clear pine windows, casement or awning - no double hung or other sliding >designs. Roof: 12" built up starting with 1" T&G on the inside, furring >strips, 2x10s on edge with fiberglass batts in between, sheathing, etc., R-38. >Purlin design provides 100psf snow load. Fiberglass shingles; will replace >with metal in 10-15 years. Two floors plus walkout basement. All electric, >electric provides code-required backup to wood heat. Vermont Castings >Defiant Encore woodstove heats entire house, 1700sf, not counting basement. >Well: 440'. Three miles from nearest public road. Research log systems >for two years before building house. Hired contractor to do complete >turn-key construction. I did cleanup, so checked on work in detail 3 times >a week. Construction time was 4 months. Six months is more typical for >a custom log home. Owner-built is more like 4 years. > >******************************************************************************** > >>Never, thankfully, having had to actually live in a log house I >>have had many neighbors and friends who have and have spent >>many hours observing construction techniques and living conditions. >> >>The more I see of log houses the more I am convinced that I wouldn't >>park my car in one, let alone live there. Why not? Let me count >>the reasons... >> >>1. Cold and drafty. Regardless of the log house industry propaganda, >>the R factor for an 8 inch log wall is about 5. R1 means 1 inch of wood. >>The mean diameter of a 8 inch log is ~5.6 inches. There you are. Now, > >True as far as it goes. 8 inches is really a bit small for a log wall. As >I explained in my earlier post, failure to manage heat carefully can make >life difficult. However, if thermal mass (U value) counts for nothing, I am >at a loss to explain why my house is so easy to heat (or even overheat, with, >say, 10-15 guests) in 10 degree weather. > >It is true that U value means little in an environment which is consistently >very cold or very hot. The time constant (delay) which thermal mass provides >is eventually used up. Thermal mass is useful to me because sunshine and >warm days are common in the winter, and my house has sufficient thermal mass >to withstand several days of subzero weather before it really wants to cool >down. If the sun comes out (cold clear days are also common), I get >substantial passive solar gain, and it may be necessary to let the fire go out >if the exterior temperature rises above 25 degrees. Below that, a fire >is still necessary. > >>the log house people come back with a lot of crap about how you have >>to look at logs differently, thermal mass, etc. Nonsense, R factor >>is R factor, whether you're using logs, frame, or mud. Besides the >>less than thrilling insulating abilities, the corner joints are a >>bitch to seal and, due to unbelievable shrinkage and warping, are >>constantly conspiring against you. The shrinkage in log houses >>is incredible, you have to float the window and door frames to >>allow for a 2 to 3 inch shrink in exterior wall height. > >This is entirely possible. Handcrafted houses built with green logs tend >to shrink a lot and experience seal failures. Mine was built with beetle >kill pine cut standing dead, so the shrinkage and twisting had already >happened. I also pointed out that I believe many milled log sealing systems >may have problems, but I have no first-hand experience. My house did settle >after the roof was on. Every structural post in the house has a screw jack >under it to account for this. The house was leveled and aligned about one >month after the roof was put on, before the interior walls were finished. > >To seal properly large beads of flexible chinking must be used. Mine was >Sashco Log Jam. This argues in favor of a "traditional" log house look, but >means that those who favor a particularly neat, uniform appearance will not >be pleased. > >>2. Crude finish. >>It still looked like someplace >>that Conan the Barbarian might agree to hang his sword. The base, window, >>and door casing was very crude. The electrical outlets were hideous. >>The resolution of interior framed walls joining up with the exterior >>log walls was awful. The point is, the quality of work and materials >>was the best that money could buy but the log environment did not >>allow anything to be done very well. > >Again true, up to a point. People who want neat, uniform, smooth interiors >have no business shopping for a log home. They won't be happy. In my case, >I wanted a "rustic" interior. It actually came out much less rustic than I >expected. After seeing the custom-made knotty pine trim, planed smooth with >nice routered edges, I thought I probably would have been just as happy with >rough-sawn cedar, although the cedar certainly would have collected more dirt. >I think the outlets are kind of ugly, but they'll look better when I get >around to replacing the standard plastic covers with wood ones - but then, >of course, they won't be as smooth and soothing. > >My interior walls are joined to the logs by simply cutting a shallow slot in >the wall logs so that a straight edge of drywall or, in some places, T&G pine >can be used. The resulting joint is chinked. The whole effect is, indeed, >"rustic" as opposed to uniform and soothing. > >>3. Dust and dirt. Log houses give new meaning to dust. You got nothing >>but nooks and crannies to collect and shed dust. A log wall is just >>a dozen or so horizontal shelves gathering dust. If you live in an >>area with any wind at all, dirt and dust is continually blowing in >>thru ill fitting windows, doors, and logs. > >Possibly true. We haven't really noticed any more dust than we had in our >house in town. Our main problem is cat hair, anyway. There was noticeable >dust initially, probably left over from construction, but maybe we just got >accustomed to it. There is a lot more dirt on the floor than in town, but >we expected that, since we've given up concrete and bluegrass for dirt roads, >and, so far, dirt landscaping. It takes a while to get things to grow up >here. Logs do provide many nooks and crannies. To deal with those every >six months or so, Sears makes a very powerful shop vac, a tool which every >rural dweller should have anyway. We haven't noticed dust blowing in through >the windows, despite winds in excess of 80mph on occasion. It doesn't seem >any worse than the dust we got in town from forced air heat, which we no >longer have! > >>4. Visual violence. Log houses are visually very busy. While this is >>certainly a subjective judgement, I prefer a more soothing visual >>environment. I find the overabundance of lines, shadows, >>discordant joints, and colors very annoying. > >True, true. See statements above. You wouldn't be happy in a log house for >this reason alone. In our house, the 6" T&G, the slate hearth and the hand >peeled railings all add to the cacophony. Being handcrafted, the logs are >lumpy and irregular, and the chinked seams are all different sizes. >Chaos! ;-) The thing is made from *trees* and, by God, they aren't hidden >away where they can't be seen, and they haven't been made smooth and uniform. >To my way of thinking, the house has a wonderful texture - but I know it has >entirely too much texture for a lot of people. > >A friend of mine grew up in a house built to a modernistic style back in the >'60s. Everything is very smooth; everything is precisely aligned; all surfaces >are easily cleaned. The kitchen cabinets were white metal, which I thought >to be rather, uh, institutional. The drywall work had to be done twice in >order to make it align precisely to the cabinets without any concealing trim. >The whole effect was, I thought, rather sterile. Nonetheless, my friend >liked it, and I knew without asking (although he later confirmed this) that >he would find a log house disturbing and unpleasant. > >>Now, I sure that there are lots of log house dwellers that would >>and no doubt will vigorously disagree. I wish them well in their >>log experience. I have known lots of people who have built and >>lived in log houses. I have never known anyone that did it a >>second time. > >My next-door neighbors are on their second log house. I hope never to build >another one because I'm not interested in moving out of this one, but maybe >my fairy godmother will allow me to live near a ski area someday ("near" >being 30 miles back in the nearest unpopulated woods!). > >Frankly, compared to a well-designed and manufactured modular home, log >houses, particularly handcrafted ones, offer mediocre value for the money. >To be more specific, modulars are now available which can be placed over >basements and offer custom interiors, 2x6 construction and fake log siding. >But log houses are the real thing. There is an emotional attachment. They >smell like trees. A good design can be open and airy (if that's what you >like), with good light. It doesn't have to be small, dark, cold or drafty. >In the living room of our house, we can't even tell that a 40 mph wind is >blowing unless we look out at the trees. It's solid. It's tight and it's >astonishingly easy to heat. I keep it 5-10 degrees warmer than my old house >in town because I can. I have lots of downed wood to get rid of, and even >if I buy fancy peeled pine at $65/cord, a cord lasts 6-8 weeks. And pine is >a really lousy wood to heat with! > >Log houses aren't for everyone. They *do* have lots of nooks and crannies. >They *are* visually "busy". There's lots of work involved in cutting and >splitting wood, whether the house is log or stick-built. A poorly built >log house will leak like a sieve, and small beads of caulk attempting to >hold two large pieces of wood together will fail repeatedly. Like any >construction project, it must be done right by knowledgeable people, and >not very many people really know log construction. Lots of people know >stick-built techniques. > >Also, I would not build a log house in a consistently hot, humid environment. >If it doesn't get cool at night (it does where I live - 90 degree days >followed by 50 degree nights are common) the logs will eventually heat up, >and the thermal mass will work against you when it finally does cool off. > >The Texas environment makes it difficult to prevent insect infestation and >decay in exposed wood, and maintenance is a continuous project. In Colorado, >however, crudely built log houses built a century ago with no treatment >whatsoever are still standing, although the stick built parts (window frames, >roof systems, floors) have long since failed. > >I seem to be the only one posting with anything good to say about log houses. >This is, perhaps, as it should be, since they can be difficult. If you want >one, go in with your eyes open. > >***************************************************************************** > >I like to think I know something about log houses. I own one. I designed >it (custom) and contracted for its construction with a fairly well-known >log home builder. > >You will, undoubtedly, receive strong opinions on both sides (i.e., log >homes are wonderful, or log homes are junk). The truth lies somewhere in >between. Like any construction method, log building has strengths and >weaknesses. > >First, you should know that log construction comes in two basic flavors: >milled and handcrafted. Lincoln Logs are milled. All the logs in your >house will be the same size and shape, like dimension lumber. Handcrafted >construction involves logs that are peeled, but which otherwise retain >their original shape, including bumps, lumps and taper from one end to the >other. There are many variations on both milled and handcrafted. > >>He (distributor) told me that it would cost (roughly): >> >> (3 x Kit Price) = Total cost if I did nothing (contractor does it). >> (2.5 x Kit Price)= Total cost if I did some work (like finishing). >> (2 x Kit Price) = Total cost if I did all work. > >Maybe. Cost is also heavily dependent on how you choose to finish the house. >A house finished sort of like a tract home will cost sort of like a tract >home. A house with a lot of custom woodwork will be much more expensive. > >>Also, I was told building the house takes 4-6 weeks by professionals. >>He said their log homes really don't settle. Can this be true, or do >>all log homes settle ? > >The house will settle a little, but milled log houses built with properly >dried wood usually don't settle much. It is, however, necessary to leave >a small allowance for settling around door and window frames. > >>Their kit prices range from $20,000 up to $71,000. Is that a lot ? > This is in the "normal" range. >>Lincoln Logs has a 100 year limited warranty and uses: >> * Minimum 12 Course Exterior Wall - 8" high x 6" Thick Double T&G, > A solid wood wall only 6" thick will not have much R value. It will, > like any solid wood wall, have good thermal mass, but I believe solid > wood walls should be at least 9" thick. (R value for dry pine is > about 1.25 per inch.) >> Graded logs > Standard practice with milled logs. >> * Owens-Corning Class A Fire Rated Fiberglass Roof Shingles (25 year). > Nothing special here - these are ordinary 3 tabs. >> * Benchmark Doors >> * HURD Windows with Heat Mirror >> * HURD Swinging Patio Doors with Heat Mirror >> * Vetter Sliding Patio Doors w/HiPro 4 insulated glass >> * Velux skylights > Not familiar with these brands - I have Weathershield. > >****************************************************************************** > >Eastern White Pine is also what we went with. It's easy to cut & work >with (yellow pine can be a real pain) and fairly cheap. I've heard of >Lincoln Logs but can't give you any recommendations. > >We bought from Old Timer Log Homes out of Knoxville TN, and they have >since been acquired by a larger company. We have no complaints. >We bought logs by the bundle (no plans, no kit) and got a good product. > > >>He (distributor) told me that it >>would cost : > >> (3 x Kit Price)= Total cost if I did nothing and had a contractor do it all. >> (2.5 x Kit Price)= Total cost if I did some work (like finishing) and had a >> contractor do the rest it. >> (2 x Kit Price)= Total cost if I did all work. > >> That would be a "finished" house with well, septic, appliances, ect... >> Move in condition. > >These seem awful arbitrary. Are these prices for *their* contractors? >Not that this is bad because if that's all the guys do, they have gotten >good at it. Unfortunately, with craftsmen, it also means they know where >to cut corners. Depends how much perfection you're willing to pay for. >A local contractor who hasn't built a log home before may cut you a break >to gain the experience (or massively underbid). Lots of unknowns. Banks >do not like unknowns. I guess I'd lean towards option 2 if you don't >mind living in total chaos for a year or two. > > >> Their kit prices range from $20,000 up to $71,000. Is that a lot ? > >Ours was kind of a weird construction because only 2 walls were logs >with the others mostly below grade (log siding over frame on top of block). >The house is 1900 ft**2 and it cost us 15,000 for logs (+ spikes, foam, >other miscellany) in 1986. So this does not sound like a terrible price. >Also, the price is only going to go higher. > >I can't tell if they pre-cut the logs to length for you. This adds. > >> He said they have 7 full-time crews building log homes and that they are >> good crews that do quality work. Also, I was told building the house takes >> 4-6 weeks. He said their log homes really don't settle. Is this legit >> or do all log homes settle ? He said they now recommended some new product >> to apply to the wood (can't remember the name) that it is excellent and >> is good for a long time. He said it is expensive -> $30 a gallon. > >If you decide to go with their crew, make sure you have a good rapport with >the contractor. One of the strong points of log homes is that they go up >quickly. I can't imagine a home not settling as the wood shrinks. Did he >mean the foundation? Good wood finishes are indeed this expensive. We used >WoodGard (which is now EPA red-tagged), about this expensive, at the advice >of a neighbor who's a painter & sprayed it on for us. Dunno what he uses >now. Again, a big overhang for the roof will cure a multitude of evils. >We waited 4-5 years to spray...you might consider doing the same, so the >wood can dry out evenly (dunno about humidity concerns in Mass. vs. here) > >> Also, he stated that they do not require full payment until 90 days after >> completion (I'm pretty sure he said that). > >That's between them, you, and the bank. The bank will probably be happiest >if they or some other contractor does a turnkey job. This sounds like a >nice concession on their part to give you time to get your occupancy permit, >and get the money from the bank. > >> Lincoln Logs has a 100 year limited warranty. > >The worst that can happen is bad twisting (are the logs kiln-dried? Ours >were, and almost all were very straight) and insects/rot. What does the >warranty cover? > >> All the kits use: > >> Minimum 12 Course Exterior Wall - 8" high x 6" Thick Double T&G, Graded logs >6" is a little thin. We have 8" and a north exposure, good solar upstairs, >half earth-sheltered, temp range -10 - 90, and burn about 3 cords on average >to maintain a 60-65 temperature. > >> Owens-Corning Class A Fire Rated Fiberglass Roof Shingles (25 year ones.) >If it were me, I'd get a metal roof. They come in lots of colors, go on >quick, and last forever (ours are 75 year warranted). Good for snow and >fire. Skylights can be problematical. > >> Benchmark Doors >> HURD Windows with Heat Mirror (triple glass with polarization layer) >> HURD Swinging Patio Doors with Heat Mirror > >We used Hurd double glass. No major problems, they're pretty good quality. > >> Vetter Sliding Patio Doors w/HiPro 4 insulated glass >> and all the interior partitions and necessary materials to build the "shell" >> of the house.. > >Do you mean that the logs are used as siding over a framed house? (This is >what my neighbor did) > >> Does this sound pretty good, and what should I be asking the distributor ? > >>From my limited experience, this sounds pretty good. Lincoln Logs is one >of the bigger companies and can be flexible with you. Ask to see other >homes. Make sure a semi can get to where you want to build. Foundation? >Can a cement truck get where you want to build? What is the policy on >defective materials? Are there any banks he'd recommend for financing? >Who is responsible for getting all the permits? What do you need, like >wetlands stuff, septic certification, well certification, any more? > >>Just wondering if you could recommend them or anyone else that >>does log homes, and any "gotchas" I should be aware of in dealing with log >>homes. > >How do you plan to heat the thing? If you want a/c or forced air, >ductwork can be a real pain with log construction. Main gotchas are >poor construction technique, like breaking a log over a door or window >(I've seen this!) or not allowing for settling over a door or window >(I've done this!). After most of the settling, perma-chink the logs >in 4-5 years. This does wonders for the interior appearance & does >a little to seal air leaks. If you can work in some passive solar, >log homes can be very energy efficient (might be less of a factor >where you are). > >****************************************************************************** > >There is a series of episodes of the PBS 'Hometime' series that deals with log >home construction. It just finished here about 4 weeks ago. I don't know about >the quality of information it contains, but it was fun to watch, and looked like >it would at least be food for thought. > >****************************************************************************** > >Don't know if this'll be any help or not, but I remember there was a >whole series on log homes on PBS about 6 months ago. It was on the >show where the pseudo-couple did all the work on the homes. The woman >on the show recently retired, and the show turned into (I think) the >Bob Vila home show. If you're familiar with the PBS home shows, you'll >know that they're pretty informational. As I recall, it was a pretty >lengthy series, and covered everything from roofing to installing >windows. You may want to catch the address (Sunday morning) on your >local PBS show. > >******************************************************************************* > >We've been living in our log home for just over 8 years now. Overall, it's >great. Ours was a kit from Heritage Log Homes in Gatlinburg TN. There is >a magazine available, I believe it's called "Log Home Living" - I've seen >it on several newsstands - lots of stories about "nice" log homes, also a >good source book for manufacturers/distributors. > > >> They claimed they are the only log house company that is certified >> by some National organization (forgot the name), for water-tightness. > >Take this with a grain of salt. > >> They said that they have sold and have been involved with about >> 150 different log homes in the Mass area. >> >> He (distributor) told me that it would cost (roughly): >> >> (3 x Kit Price) = Total cost if I did nothing (contractor does it). >> (2.5 x Kit Price)= Total cost if I did some work (like finishing). >> (2 x Kit Price) = Total cost if I did all work. > >This is probably not too far out of line, depending on amenities, fixtures, >etc. We did "essentially" all the work on ours, but with top of the line >fixtures, hardwood floors, etc, it came in about 3.5 x kit price (our kit >only included the logs, doors, & windows) so all 2nd floor, and roof framing >and finish were additional. Question you have to ask yourself is how much >time and effort are you willing/able to devote (ours took about 18months from >foundation to move-in) > >> >> That would be a "finished" house with well, septic, appliances, ect... >> Move in condition. >> >> Also, I was told building the house takes 4-6 weeks by professionals. > >If everything goes right! - no rain, no missed deliveries, subcontractors >show up on time, etc, etc, etc. DON'T COUNT ON IT! 2 - 2.5 months is >more like it. > >> He said their log homes really don't settle. > >WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Unless they are using kiln dried logs, you can expect >about 1.5" to 2" of settling in the first year, after that, it's negligible >(the house will actually "brathe" about 1/4" annually, as the ambient >humidity varies) You need to allow for this in any plumbing, etc that you >run to the 2nd floor. > >Can this be true, or do >> all log homes settle ? He said they now recommend some new product to >> apply to the wood (can't remember the name) that it is excellent and >> is good for a long time. He said it is expensive -> $30 a gallon. > >There are a number of good wood preservative/sealers on the market - your >price is about right. >> >> Their kit prices range from $20,000 up to $71,000. Is that a lot ? > >It depends, what is included? I suggest you contact several companies and >get their info packs (typically $5 - $10 each) and look a floor plans, features >options, etc. Don't rush into it! Make sure you know what you want and can >afford. >> Lincoln Logs has a 100 year limited warranty and uses: >> * Minimum 12 Course Exterior Wall - 8" high x 6" Thick Double T&G, >> Graded logs >> * Owens-Corning Class A Fire Rated Fiberglass Roof Shingles (25 year). > >might I suggest a metal roof - they look great, and sound wonderful in the rain >(wish I had put one on our house!) > >> * Benchmark Doors >> * HURD Windows with Heat Mirror >> * HURD Swinging Patio Doors with Heat Mirror >> * Vetter Sliding Patio Doors w/HiPro 4 insulated glass >> * Velux skylights > >Excellent skylights! > >Other things to consider: log shape - round logs look great, but on the inside >they tend to collect dust - my wife "hates" this. Some companies manufacture >a "D" shaped log - log shape on the outside, flat wall inside. > >Switches, and outlets on the exterior walls take a little ingenuity - our >outlets are let into the baseboards (4" - 6" planks). If you go with a raised >floor (crawlspace or basement under) plumbing, wiring, ducts, etc. are a lot >easier. > >********************************************************************************* > >Last season, the home-improvement show Hometime did a series on building a >log cabin. They often make the videotape for a project available commercially; >the videos are also generally available through your local public TV station. > >They covered a _lot_ in the series about the differences in building a log >vs. a standard frame home. I understand that the videos are usually even >more detailed; at least it would give you some ideas of the issues to >question the distributor/builder about. > >Hometime did not use Lincoln. They made a _big_ deal about allowances for >settling, including special plumbing and a detached fireplace! I'd ask >to see log homes that the builder built several years ago before believing >that the logs won't settle. > >******************************************************************************* > >We did. We visited Southern Log Homes in SC and several real homes of >various ages. We read through the literature for many many companies. >Our conclusions: all log home companies have a selling point, i.e. the >"only" company that provides such and such. All homes settle, all log >homes settle. The problem is that you can see the settling in a log home >in the forms of cracked interior walls, cracks in logs or chinking. All >this may not be a real problem, as long as your home maintains its >insulation factor. > >What dissuaded us: unless you sheetrock the interior walls, they will >always be log walls, a dark finish for interiors. You must decide before >building where all the electrical conduit will go, as this is drilled >into the interior of the logs. This cannot be changed, and if you add >electrical runs in the future, you must scab them in on top of the walls. > You can put in central vaccuum, but I believe it must be run only on >interior (stick construction) walls. > >My recommendations: read "Log Homes" magazine for ideas. Contact the >PBS show Hometime and order their video on log home construction. They >added numerous features to account for settling, such as compression >joints in all plumbing and all walls. Take a good look at your >neighborhood, will a log home fit in? Get a quote from a builder for the >same size/style home in conventional construction; we found that the log >home would end up to be considerably more in price. Good luck. > >********************************************************************************* > >I moved into a log cabin ( not a kit, hand built, etc ) about 3.5 years ago, >after buying it the Insurance company canceled my insurance policy for >replacement cost and replaced the policy with one that would only pay me >what I paid for the cabin originally. I was told that this was their policy >on log cabins. I had wished they had told me this up front when I went to >them for insurance to start. This last year they have upgraded my insurance >for replacement cost, I am not sure why the change since it cost no more >then the other policy. Anyway, you might check on whether your insurance >policy will cover the replacement or original cost only ( which does not >help if the place burns down and its ten years later worth of inflation ). >