From The old software of the Gary North ForumDate: July 11, 1997 11:01 PMffI like the Kubota for diesel and the Honda (expensive) or Generac(inexpensive) for gas. Any opinions as to which one would be best forwhatever purpose?ThanksArnold(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=230)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: July 13, 1997 09:32 PMSubject: connection of generatorsa few things to keep in mind when connecting generators. 1 if the generatoris connected at the main electrical panel it can send power back out on tothe high voltage lines. 2 one way to deal with that is to pull the meter,but the utility company generally takes a dim of that. 3 another way is toinstall a manual transfer switch.(Ken comments: not to mention if you do NOT put in a transfer switch an "oops" can fry your generator in half a second)(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=316)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: July 14, 1997 03:14 PM     Subject: PULLING THE METER: Here is OK if the power has failed     We just recently had some tornados blow through. I lost power. The     Neighbours brother, an electrical engineer told me it was OK to pull     the meter and rig up a pig tail if the elerical utility failed to     provide service, i.e. if the power failed. Of course this is just when     you need it, so, no problem.     Arnold(Ken comments: uh? just get a transfer switch and be done with dangerousexpedient solutions, pigtail? temporary conections are more likely to eatwatts or fail)     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=345)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: July 14, 1997 11:00 PMSubject: Residential Gen SetsThere are three choices for fuel for small residential, generator sets.These are gasoline, gas (natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) whichis mostly propane) and diesel fuel. Diesel engines are the most efficientand in the smaller sizes, would give the longest life, but the engines aremuch more expensive and are noisier. Gasoline engines are the cheapest andmost readily available but are the most inefficient and expensive to run.This doesn't really matter if it is only needed once every 5 years or so torun your sump pump and freezer and a few lights for a few hours after astorm. Gasoline and diesel fuel cannot be stored indefinitely and need tohave special preservatives. Diesel and gasoline tanks are dangerous to havesitting in your garage or back yard.Natural gas is the best choice as it is the lowest cost and also theengines run longer because the fuel does not contaminate the oil. Naturalgas does not need to be hauled, if you have a NG pipe to your house.An advantage of a natural gas generator set is that you can use (with theproper fuel system) LPG as a backup. Gasoline could also be used as abackup but it is more complicated. The ideal system would be an engine withnatural gas/propane dual fuel capability with a good sized propane thankfor a reserve in case the gas utility could not serve you. Remotehomeowners should consider a LPG gen set, possibly with gasoline backup,but it might be better to just buy a cheap gasoline set for backup.The three major manufacturers of this type of small residential gen setsare Kohl, Onan and Generac. They can all provide dual fuel capability ontheir larger (10-15 kW) sets but it would be a special order. These wouldtypically be 3600 RPM air cooled engines with relatively short (2000 hours)life. The life would vary with the load, if run at half load they wouldprobably run more than 4000 hours. Slightly larger gensets with small watercooled automotive type engines running at 1800 RPM are much more durable,but also much more expensive. The noise level of a water cooled engine at1800 is much lower.One small manufacturer has offered a gen set which allows the engine to runat variable speed. The engine would run at low speeds when little power wasneeded but could go up to full 3600 RPM when max power was needed. This isa desirable feature for increasing engine life and reducing noise and fuelcost. This requires a signal conditioner or a rectifier and converter tomaintain the required 60 Hz. A rectifier and converter would also havelosses, reducing the efficiency gains made by keeping the engine at lowerspeeds.All reputable gen set manufacturers offer automatic switch gear and thesets can be configured (at extra cost) to automatically start and come online on when the grid goes down.One problem with these relatively low cost, unsophisticated gen sets isthat they do not maintain exactly 60 Hz, the frequency will vary with load,lower at high load, higher at light loads. Probably by 10%-15%, plus andminus 5-7% from nominal 60 HZ. The need to keep frequency constant can behandled pretty well on larger sets with isochronous governors, but thesewould not be available on the small, low cost gen sets. Generally theeffect on lights and most appliances is not major, but computers may notaccept varying frequency.If one goes to the expense of setting up a viable, residential powerproducing gen set, they should go a step further and configure it so theycan recover the waste heat to help heat their home, especially in northernclimates. (A common practice called cogeneration.) This is not feasiblewith with air cooled gen sets, so the optimum system would require a watercooled engine and would be rather expensive. Onan and Kohler do offer watercooled marine generarator sets which would work well for a residentialcogenaration package.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=364)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: July 17, 1997 08:15 PMSubject: Budget Generator Substitute ?Since the computers will be down why not utillize the inverters in the nowuseless U.P.S.'s (powerconditioners) attached to so many of our p.c.'s ? Ifthey are running on a small 12v battery, disconnect and run wires to carbattery to power emergency lights, a small t.v., or ??. A deep cycle marinebattery would be preferable if available. Recharge battey with caralternator, (caution don't run down battery too far, typical UPS will soundan alarm at about 10.5 vdc . Having a spare car/car battery for jumpstarting could be wise.If you are considering power conditionning for your computer you mightthink ahead and get a 12v battery based unit with a test switch (thatallows unit to start up without A.C. input). I have run a 75watt smallcolor t.v. with 75 watts of energy efficient lights (total 150 watts a.c.power for over 11hours) and still had the reserve to start the car upseveral times.Those who have a generator can use this for night power when the generatornoise is a problem.It's true most inverters in UPS's won't handle inductive loads (motors,transformers) well, and wattage limitations Must Be Followed. for what it'sworth, Tom..(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=457)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: July 22, 1997 03:58 PM          Subject: RE: Budget generator substitute     Running a car engine to simply recharge a battery is a waste of fuel.     A better solution is to couple a small engine to an auto alternator to     create a dedicated battery charger. Many off-the-grid people do this     to avoid running a generator simply for battery charging. The     advantage to this method is that often the alternator and engine can     be scrounged for very little money (junkyards and old lawnmower     engines). A more detailed discussion of this is at:     http://theepicenter.com - see the "Tip 'O Da Week" section.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=590)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: August 06, 1997 11:02 PM         Subject: RUN PC; off the grid     I had an engineering consulting business that required me to run a PC     in the field inspecting pipe lines etc. I did this by using an active     UPS system from Sola, (not a stand-by system that most people now use)     fed by a small honda gas generator, the active UPS system cleaned up     the dirty power from the generator and was not dependent on batteries.     When I would have a vehicle running all the time, I fed the UPS with     an 12vdc to 120vac motor generator that I bought from a marine supply     store (can't remember the name) drawback, only 60% efficeint and     noisy.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=1119)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: July 26, 1997 09:53 PMSubject: How best store gasoline?Now that I have a gasoline generator, what is the best procedure forstoring gasoline?(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=739)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: September 07, 1997 11:59 AMSubject: STEAM for electricityI posted this info in the Solar area but thought I'd add it here too. Myplanning for the worst case led toplans for an outdoor boiler for heat andthen considering the source of juice to pump the heat to the house andgarage. I looked into windmills and solar. EXPENSIVE ! and I will probablyuse some solar but I found that steam is not the historical oddity Ithought it was. The Steam Outlet PO Box 1426 Thonotassassa FL33592 has acatalog that is also a good intro to the concept. they sell steam turbines(much more efficient than piston steam) and plans for various types of offgrid power making. catalog is $5 refundable with an order. Very well wothit.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=2289)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: September 23, 1997 07:33 AMSubject: DUMMIESWould someone answer a few questions for us dummy generator buyers. Doesfuel consumption vary with the demand put on the generator? Can the outputof the gen be regulated? Is there such a thing as overkill when investing?If just water pump, sump pump and wash machine power is needed, what sizegen should one buy. Will natural gas availability fail in a y2k emergency.What is necessary to convert natural to propane use? Are there largerportable propane containers available? Is it necessary to bring in anelectrician to get things set up if you're a dumb as I am? HELP!!!hull stetson(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3030)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: September 23, 1997 11:46 PM         Subject: Dummies     Hull I'm certainly no expert on generators since I just purchased one     2 days ago but I'll pass along what little info I gathered regarding     my purchase.     I had spoken to an electrician friend a few weeks ago that I was     looking for a good used propane generator in the 4 to 6kw range to be     used for back-up for my water well and a few other items. He called me     a week ago to say he had run across a 15kw propane Onan with a auto     unit with 1200 hours for $2800. Would I be interested? Although it was     a larger unit than I needed I said I would be interested if I could     have some Onan service center to check it out. This was agreeable, so     I took it and they load tested it for about 3 hours and with about $35     worth of repairs gave it a clean bill of health - total cost $220.     I had already purchased a 1000gal. propane tank for $700. So with a     little copper tubing @ $.60/ft. and about $50 with of work by my     electrician friend I should be in business shortly.     Godd luck to you Vic     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3059)          -----------------------------------------------------------------          [Top][Previous][Next][Print]          Date: September 24, 1997 12:12 AM               Subject: Some guys get all the deals!          Look arround texas for used gen pac they used all over because of          the oil industry restructing.          (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3060)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: September 24, 1997 10:07 AM         Subject: Remember what Gary North said?     Hull, one item that Gary North mentions that is easy to overlook is     that after Y2K there is going to be a breakdown in the division of     labor, both physical and mental labor. Translated: we all (me too!)     have to get off our physical and intellectual butts and do things that     we've gotten out of the habit of doing - being self reliant. While we     have the system up and going, yes, let's take full advantage of it,     but if we make a habit of depending on others to do what we can do     ourselves, we are going to be in trouble in the future.     You asked 8 questions, most could be answered by carefully reading the     above posts by Jay, Eric, Barry, Albert, Tom, Bill, William, Albert,     Ken, and Paul in this thread. I'm not sure what you meant by "Can the     output of the gen be regulated?". How close the alternator maintains     its rated voltage and frequency is not something that you'll see in     the casual spec sheet, particularily when operating near full output.     You need to ask the manufacturer that question, the typical retailer     will just give you a glib, "oh just fine". The poster of the     SOLA/Honda combo makes a good point that any line noise sensitive use,     like computer or radio, should have the raw output of the alternator     filtered through a GOOD UPS or filter system.     If you have read the articles that GN posts under the Power Grid,     Compliance, Domino Effect, and Noncompliant chip areas you shouldn't     need to ask, "Will natural gas availability fail in a Y2K emergency?".     While it is certainly okay to utilize a system resource, depending on     it is another thing. Think of it like hang gliding - do not go higher     than you mind falling.     You'll have to make a decision on how much you want to pay to keep     your water pump, sump pump, and washing machine (luxury item) going.     If your sump pump is a critical item a generator might not be the most     practical method of powering it, an inverter and a battery bank might     be a better idea, or "cut out the middle man" and buy a DC sump pump     with REAL short wires going from the battery bank to the pump. Too bad     that sump pumps aren't available like the motor on my sewing machine,     100-110 volts 25-75 cycles or D.C. Northern Hydrualic has a nice     catalog that will show you a WIDE variety of gen sets that are bi or     tri-fuel. On propane, a 1.5'D. by 5' tank by my definition is     "portable". If you want the luxury of just turning on the gen set,     switching a transfer switch and running appliances, yes, get an     electrician to install a transfer switch between your meter and your     distribution box. If you are going to power just a few items     intermitantly, and gen set and some HEAVY guage extension cords will     sufice.     One more thing, there just isn't ONE correct answer to any problem in     Y2K because until it happens, NOBODY knows what the problem is going     to be. Are looters, bureaucrats or mother nature going to be the major     problem? I wish I knew. Perhaps all three, but in what sequence? You     can't plan for everything, at least I can't. While I'm not going to     allow myself to be overly vulnerable to the New Madrid fault dealing     me an 8 richter in Feb.2000, I'm not assuming that it will.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3068)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: October 02, 1997 07:55 PMI haven't been able to find any information on ovens for baking bread. WhenI was a kid back in the 30s, we had a big square sort of box that set on akerosene stove that my Mom used to bake in. What is available today?(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3449)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 02, 1997 09:21 PM       Subject: ovens     If you find out something, I sure would like to know. We were just     going to try to build a metal box of sorts.     Has anyone tried any of Jade Mountain's solar ovens? One, they say,     will go to 500 degrees...I live in the middle of the U.S. Monica     George     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3456)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: November 10, 1997 04:12 AM         Subject: Baking     You can bake bread in a pressure cooker (the choice of sailors), or     you can bake in a dutch oven. Also. I beleive Coleman makes a stovetop     oven with a thermometer on the door. My wife, who used the Coleman     type in Alaska, says they wear-out fast.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=5380)          -----------------------------------------------------------------          [Top][Previous][Next][Print]          Date: November 11, 1997 09:08 AM               Subject: Coleman stove-top ovens          Dr. Dough, can you tell me what parts of what appears to be a          fairly simple contraption wears out? Other than the door, there          can't be many moving parts.          Is it the case that a dutch oven would do everything a stove-top          oven would do and more?          Thanks.          (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=5472)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Subject: energy/fuelI hope I don't burst anyones expensive bubble. but I think we in our homehave just about decided we can live like many in third world countries, dowithout. Go ahead, call me crazy. But if you turn out the lights, you go tosleep and wake up with enough rest by morning sun. The only thing I amconcerned about is refrigeration.When you consider that most of the world lives without energy use, lightsor a frig, it's a little less frightening. Any comments out there?(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3613)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 06, 1997 11:37 AM         (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3632)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: October 06, 1997 01:24 PMSubject: CHINA DIESEL:anyone have experience?Anyone have experience with generators from China Diesel? They have an 8Kgenerator for around $2000.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=3638)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 12, 1997 11:03 PM\     Subject: ACE RESOURCE LIST     Bruce Tippery, publisher of Gary's North's Firestorm Chats has made     available his own personal resouce list for y2k. He lists suppliers     for everything from solar and wind power, generators, trees,     non-powered tools, general outdoorish stuff, books on medical care,     books on gardening, food preservation,etc. All you have to do for this     info+ is send a self addressed, stamped envelope to: Resource List     attention Bruce Tippery, PO Box 1014, Colleyville, TX, 76034. He will     send the list to you free of charge, but as valuable as the     information is, you might want to show your appreciation for his     generosity by including $1 or so. We all know about supply and demand,     and at the price offered, the demand will be virtually unlimited.     Let's try to make sure it doesn't run out.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4085)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 27, 1997 07:08 PM     Subject: China Diesel     If you woul like to find out more about China Diesel Imports please     see http://www.chinadiesel.com or call 619 669 1995     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4730)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: December 16, 1997 02:44 PM     Subject: china diesel     Be sure and buy the book - More Power to You - for $9.95. Well worth     the money and a must before you purchase anything! I think you will     find that the project is a little bigger than first thought. Entering     with eyes wide open is advisable. China Diesel = cdi@chinadiesel.com     (619-66-1995) They can take Visa, ship the book via priority mail and     within two days, and 4 hours or reading, you can know more about     alternative power systems then you ever needed or wanted to know. They     make the point that for $4,000 +-,you can have a system that will last     for years and provide all the power you ever will need to do just     about anything. Well worth the $9.95 (plus a little shipping)     investment. A "must read"! Willi Nix     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7673)          -----------------------------------------------------------------          [Top][Previous][Next][Print]          Date: December 17, 1997 05:28 PM                    Subject: China Diesel Generators          Thanks for the tip on China Diesel for generators and small          tractors. I called them, and was impressed that this is exactly          the type of machine I will want in the post Y2k world.          I thought that a Chinese generator would be cheap and prone to          break down, however, quite the opposite is true. This is an          old-fashioned, heavy duty German designed motor, which runs at          low speed (1,800 rpm). (Apparently, when the Germans occupied the          country, they built the generator factories). The generator part          is English made (by a subsidiary of Cummings). It even comes with          a repair kit (piston rings, head gasket, other gaskets)! The          alternator has ball bearings (100,000 hr life expectancy), and          the rectifier ($75 replacement) is the only thing that could          possibly give out. In China, the reality is that if it breaks,          you can't cart it in to get fixed, you fix it on location, as          best as you can (sounding like what we will be experiencing).          I had thought of a Kubota diesel, but they say that the Japanese          made the generators with less mass, and increased the rpm. I          think that the 'bulk' and slower speed will be more desirable.          Tom          (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7765)               ------------------------------------------------------------               [Top][Previous][Next][Print]               Date: December 18, 1997 12:33 PM                              Subject: China Diesel Generators & tractors               After much research and study I purchased a 12KW diesel               generator and a 4 wd diesel tractor with a front end loader               from CD. They are very rugged pieces of equipment. The               generator and engine weighs 1,000 lbs.               If you want a generator to have a long run time (>1,000               hours) you need a slow speed (1,800 rpm) engine. Engines               that run at 3,600 rpm are fine for camping and emergency               use, but they will not last very long. A slow speed diesel               can go 10,000 hours before needing rebuilt. A high speed               engine will need rebuilt after 500 to 1,000 hours of use.               High speed engines are not made for continous duty               applications.               (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7872)                    -------------------------------------------------------                    [Top][Previous][Next][Print]                    Date: January 08, 1998 03:11 PM                                       Subject: China Diesel Reliability                    > After much research and study I purchased a 12KW                    > diesel generator and a 4 wd diesel tractor with a                    > front end loader from CD. They are very rugged                    > pieces of equipment. The generator and engine                    > weighs 1,000 lbs.                    >                    > If you want a generator                    > to have a long run time (_1,000 hours) you need a                    > slow speed (1,800 rpm) engine. Engines that run                    > at 3,600 rpm are fine for camping and emergency                    > use, but they will not last very long. A slow                    > speed diesel can go 10,000 hours before needing                    > rebuilt. A high speed engine will need rebuilt                    > after 500 to 1,000 hours of use. High speed                    > engines are not made for continous duty                    > applications.                    My 8KW CDI generator (which I purchased used) has run                    over 22,000 hours with no breakdowns. I have a hobbs                    meter (a time meter) on it, and I change the oil and                    filter every 50 hours of operation (although one storm                    it ran for 245 hours over that limit, non-stop) and the                    only maintenance that I've done to it that wasn't                    preventative was changing the belts (I bought                    industrial belts at the parts store, changed them at                    around 8400 hours because the old belts were looking a                    little ragged, and the new belts are still going                    strong).                    I have a generator house, with sound and vibration                    isolation, a very large muffler (with low back                    pressure), and a cooling system with a 50 gal drum as a                    recovery tank. I also have forced air cooling over the                    generator while it's running (with a 1500 cfm fan,                    blowing filtered air).                    With any engine it's important to run it correctly.                    Diesels do best when run at their design load, which                    means I run mine about once a week (when I'm at my                    place in the mountains), and run it for about 5 hours.                    During that time I charge the batteries, pump water,                    vacuum the house, and if I have any projects requiring                    my power tools, I try to do it then.                    I actually run my generator with a 5kw pulley                    installed. This results in a fuel consumption of about                    5 hours per gallon. The generator feeds a Trace 2024                    inverter / battery charger, and about 2.1 kw worth of                    deep cycle batteries (next year I'm going to swap them                    out for individual cell type phone batteries). I also                    take care of the batteries, keep them charged evenly,                    topped off with distilled water, and they're kept in                    their own, sometimes heated (when the weather gets real                    cold) half of the power house.                    My power house is a concrete block double building, the                    batteries are in one side and the inverter and power                    center (things that should be kept away from battery                    fumes) are in the other. The whole thing is insulated                    well, to keep the temperatures stable and above                    freezing. I even have a very small propane heater to                    keep the building warm (set at 45 degrees) when I'm                    away - I don't want the batteries to freeze.                    I designed all of this myself, based on the knowledge I                    picked up with an engineering degree (Aerospace, I                    should be building a rocket ship ), and the books More                    Power and various vendors catalogs.                    My system allows me to do most anything I want in the                    house, with little impact from a normal life. I have                    the usual accessories of life including a microwave                    (it's hard to find one these days without a digital                    display that wastes power), a TV/VCR and satellite                    dish, telephones, computers, printers, fax machine,                    etc. The inverter handles all of it well. The only real                    concession I make is to have high-efficiency bulbs, and                    to have the TV/VCR on a power strip so that if I want                    to watch them, I have to first turn them on manually -                    but then I can use the remote.                    This summer I installed a PV array (photo-voltic), next                    summer I plan on putting in a wind plant. It won't do                    much, but every watt helps.                    (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=9687)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: October 12, 1997 07:46 PMSubject: ovensI found an oven that sets on top of the stove in the Lehman catalog. Justwhat I was looking for. Check that catalog out. It has hundreds of greatthings for the non-electric lifestyle.Hull Stetson(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4078)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: October 14, 1997 12:56 PMSubject: Best idea yet$150 12V Solar recharging panel available through Survival Center orNitro-Pak co., + spare car battery = limited power for occasional use of12V TV's, space heaters, radios, and all sorts of other gizmos found in theRV section of J.C. Whtney's catalogue.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4154)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 14, 1997 03:11 PM         Subject: A better idea yet?     Major D., instead of purchasing various 12VDC appliances to run off of     your solar panel into car battery, you just might want to purchase an     inverter. The cost of the inverter will be less than the cost of the     12VDC appliances.     Now the type of inverters you see in hardware and sporting goods     stores are inexpensive and invariably the bottem of the heap. You'll     find prices like $40/100W, $125/500W etc. Their output is labeled     modified sine wave(MSW). Looks more like a square wave with hiccups.     Dual voltage square wave would be a lot more descriptive. MSW will     work perfectly for resistive loads and (usually) small motors. This     double square wave MIGHT wreck noise havoc with radios and computers     however. I have found that the little 125W MSW unit I have powers my     laptop perfectly, but my laptop is of recent vintage and well     shielded. Some inverters in this catagory will get REAL hot if you try     to run them near full power for any length of time, especially with a     motor that has an inductive load. Some of your better inverters have     cooling fans and/or massive heat sinks on the top/sides. When you get     into the higher power inverters, the more expensive units sometimes     have true sine wave output.     A purer sine wave can be found in low power units in the form of     Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) units that are sold for use with     computers. You are paying for quick switching, which you don't need in     Y2k, but you are getting a very clean AC. The "average" UPS is NOT     designed for long term duty, 5-15 minutes depending on load. The     better larger UPSs have massive heat sinks cooled by fans. Some UPSs     have jacks in the back for additional external battery input, will     even trickle charge the battery, and are designed for longer use.     Like everything else, in inverters and UPSs, you get what you pay for.     You need to consider the trade-offs between power and duration at a     given price point.     Another point is that the higher powered inverters will NOT run off of     a cigarette plug in your car. 600W output from 12VDC input is over 50     amps! This is why a really large inverter that has a 1,200W output is     usually rigged for 24VDC input (50 Amps) or 48VDC (25 Amps) rather     than 12VDC (100 Amps!). Common #12 copper wire can carry 30 amps IF     used in knob & tube (single wire in open air) and drops to 25 A inside     Romex or other sheathing. You want WAY more capacity than you "need"     in wire to avoid voltage drop and power loss.     On the subject of voltage drop and power loss, if you use 12V, your     appliances need to be REAL close to your power supply. Rule of thumb     is that for a given load, twice the voltage = 1/2 the voltage drop.     Call 120V a triple doubling of 12V (it's a bit more really) and you     have eight times the voltage drop (figured as a percentage of original     voltage).     If you are into jury-rigging, and can locate the UPS where kids or     pets will not get to it, you could remove the housing for better     cooling (exposed 120VAC ain't safe) and hooking up an additonal     battery.     Another aspect of the UPS is that one's wife might object to spending     money preparing for some event that the vast portion of people aren't     even aware of (yet!). Whereas purchasing something to protect the     expenditure you have made in your computer from brownouts, blackouts,     spikes, and line noise (bigger UPSs usually have excellent filtering)     might be a LOT more saleable.     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4158)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: October 15, 1997 07:26 PMSubject: I'm new to this: QUESTION. . .I'm somewhat surprised to see so many questions about refrigeration andgenerators. I had assumed that, with no fuel to run generators, they wouldnot be a long term solution. With refrigeration, would not our energies bebetter spent in drying foods, etc.? I suspect that we really need to changeour thinking in a more basic way. . . We would probably need to eliminateas many energy-dependent articles around the house (cave, whatever. . .)that we can, as much as I'd like to keep my computer (and freezer andtoaster and blender. . .).(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4215)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: October 16, 1997 10:22 AM      Subject: Power??     I guess that some of us are just not living in the same scenario as     you. Personally I don't think that the power will be off more than a     week for major cities or more than two months for the rest of us. A     week without power will result in most cities going up in flames (no     water, no food, and the criminal element looting).     Electricity is so important to the country that I expect a major     effort by all concerned to get it back up.     Maybe all of the above is wishful thinking but I have at least 6 mo of     backup power to make adjustments to my living if proven wrong. I can     live without electricity but I choose not to and have the means to     implement my choice. Some in these forums may not have the means to     implement such a choice and they should plan for the worst and prepare     to live without power.     Paul     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=4249)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: December 16, 1997 05:22 PMSubject: Tri Fuel GeneratorI just ordered a TRI-FUEL 9000 watt generator that runs on gasoline,natural gas, or propane. 16 hp 4 cycle air cooled with elec. start. Cost$1800. I have natural gas at my home. I bought a 1000 gal propane tank andplan to store gasoline also. I will use natural gas as long as it isavailable, then use gasoline as the storage life is short and then use thepropane. The brand name is DYNA. Ordered from Northern Equipment andSupply.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7690)     ----------------------------------------------------------------------     [Top][Previous][Next][Print]     Date: December 16, 1997 10:23 PM        Subject: Tri fuel generator     Joe, thanks, this is what I am looking for. Can you post where to     purchase this little beauty?     (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7705)          -----------------------------------------------------------------          [Top][Previous][Next][Print]          Date: December 17, 1997 12:10 AM                  Subject: Company for Generator          Their homepage is:          http://www.northern-online.com/          I found the generator in the catalog it is not online.          catalog#160094-F517          Tel. 1-800-556-7885          Battery, rack, and cables not included          (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7713)               ------------------------------------------------------------               [Top][Previous][Next][Print]               Date: December 17, 1997 03:52 PM                            Subject: tri-fuel generator               what are the specs on this unit? what type of outlets? watts               and voltage? what is the effeciency?               Walt               (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7751)                    -------------------------------------------------------                    [Top][Previous][Next][Print]                    Date: December 17, 1997 05:18 PM                                      Subject: Tri-fuel generator                    The only information I had was from the catalog. Here                    it is:                    9000 watt Tri-Fuel generator runs on gasoline, LP, or                    natural gas. Muscular 16 HP, 4-cycle, air cooled Briggs                    Vanguard OHV engine has electric start. Delivers 9000                    watts surge, 8000 continuous. Runs power tools and                    lights at the job site.....provides reliable standby                    power too! Derate 10% for LP, 20% for natural gas.                    Generator has four 15 Amp, 120 Volt outlets and one 30                    Amp, 120/240 Volt Twistlock outlet. Low oil shutdown.                    Runs 5.6 hours on a full 4.5 gallon tank of gas at half                    load. 33 1/2"L X 18 1/2"W X 25"H. Electric start                    battery, rack, and cables not included. U.S.A. Two year                    limited generator and engine warranty. Ship Wt.260 lbs.                    Item# 160094-517 Discount Price $1859.99                    When I ordered the price quoted was just under $1800.                    plus freight of about $75. I'm sure if you have any                    other questions Northern can supply the answer. The 800                    number is in my previous post.                    I talked to a friend who works for the local power                    company who has also done electrical work for me. He                    said to be safe, especially for them a double throw                    switch needs to be installed at your Amp box. The only                    other safe way would be to pull your meter if you hook                    up without the switch. Of course your're not supposed                    to do that but in an emergency you could probably get                    by with it. If you wish to keep it portable you could                    just hook it direct to whatever you want to power. If                    you hooked up to your house you would need to be                    careful and not overload the unit by running too much                    at one time. Joe                    (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7762)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: December 18, 1997 10:20 PMSubject: ALL Fuel GeneratorI have located on the Web a carburator which enables engines to burn anytype of fuel...gas, diesel, kerosene, peanut oil, corn oil...etc. It isknown as the GEET Carburator. This Corporation is selling these carburatorson the Coleman 5KW Generator for $1350 & is also installing them onAmerican cars & trucks (1984 & older - which have carburators). For moreinformation, see these 2 Web sites:www.inett.com/himac {under Geet & Paul Pantone} and the 2nd site is:www.geet.comImagine that...so what if you can't get fuel at the gas station, dump justabout anything you can find...oil, alcohol...this carburator has even runon 80% ocean water & 20% diesel! Wow...check it out.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=7925)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: January 02, 1998 11:28 AMSubject: Geet CarbsHas anyone purchased this carb, know of anyone first hand who has used thiscarb and/or has the plans to build the carb. Please reply directly to me.Thanks.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=8886)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: January 09, 1998 11:20 PMSubject: Food for thought!If things deteriorate and electricity as well as other utilities go downfor an extended period of time, we need to ask ourselves a basic question:What do I absolutely have to have to live? Answer: Food, water, shelter,protection. You don't have to have a refrigerator, or power to run one.1/1/2000 comes in the winter for most folks in North America. Need someice? Has it snowed lately? Is there a nearby stream in which you canimmerse perishables in big freezer bags?. How about digging a big, darkhole and keeping things cool using the old "wine cellar or meat locker way?Or, simply store foods that don't need refrigerating! You do need to havereliable access to water, so if you need to rely upon an electric pump, youbetter have enough power to run it...and you better have a spare unit, orat least spare parts. You don't have to have a generator to run a pump (aninverter and car battery will do provided you've got a means to charge thebattery, such as a solar charger.) Also consider that your water supply maynot be adequately treated or filtered. It might be wise to find out how totest the water, and obtain some means of filtration or purification such asthe tablets used by the military. For shelter, you don't need a generatorto be effectively sheltered. But you may need some means to heat a room inwhich to live and it would be nice if that same means of obtaining heatcould double to cook and heat water and provide light at night. A fireplaceseems ideal, if you have access to the wood. A propane/gas stove, lamp andheater element would also serve if you can store enough propane. And, whynot have a good, cold weather sleeping bag on hand for each family member?If all else fails, that bag should give you the means to stay warm. As forprotection, the best solution is to remain inconspicuous and appear to beas bad off as everyone else! Generator sets are noisy...even the quieterones. And having a house/shelter lit up while everyone else is "in thedark" is only going to invite trouble and unwanted "guests." At the veryleast, you better get some really good black-out curtains and only burnlights in those rooms. Remember that inverters, batteries and solarchargers are extremely quiet and can be concealed more easily than agenerator. Also consider that you are at greater risk for unwanted guestsif you have a generator set parked outside...they might view that as aninvitation to make an appropriation, and why stop outside your back door?If you had foresight to install a generator, who knows what other goodiesmight be found inside, such as food, parts, water, etc. While having asupply of firewood may also attract unwanted visitors, at least this is amore common sight than a generator and less likely to stir up thoughts ofentering the home.As for me and my family, we now live in a rural community with decentneighbors and our own town police force. 2500 population with a grocerystore, drug store, three gas stations, full medical clinic and surroundedby agriculture. We have an old generator already, but I won't use it exceptwhen absolutely necessary. We have an inverter with deep-cycle marinebatteries and a charger. A solar charger is on the way. We have a fireplaceand have made a habit of stocking a substantial supply of wood, so no onewould be the wiser if they see a big pile out back. We have a "rabbit gun",good axe and knife. We've got plenty of tools. Our windows are blockablewith dark curtains. We plan on keeping one or two rooms functional, andclosing off the rest of the house if worse comes to worse. Also, we're2/10ths of a mile from a farmer's irrigation well, (he has a generator andpump on it) and we've made sure we have a good rapport with him. He growscorn, tomatoes, beans, cukes, etc. and even has a storage bin near our homethat is filled with edible grain. We've got enough AC wire to run a cablefrom his irrigation generator to our house, and we've got a few good sizedbuckets for water and a wagon to haul it. We've got 2 bikes to get in andout of town. We have a manual air pump for the tires and several cans offix-a-flat! You get the idea...perhaps we all need to think in such termsand try to figure out what we'll need, should things turn bad. Maybe weshould each try killing the main circuit breaker and cutting off the mainwater line...then go about your life and see what problems you encounter.Then, do what you've got to do to solve the difficulties. Having agenerator may be nice, but is it really THAT important and necessary? Ifyou've simply got to have one, I suggest you get one that can run on morethan one fuel, or get the smallest, quietest gas unit you can find. Goodluck, and I hope I prompted some thinking. I'd like to get your thoughts,too.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=9839)---------------------------------------------------------------------------[Top][Previous][Next][Print]Date: February 06, 1998 01:28 PMSubject: Fuel for Thought (and for generators?)I was considering purchasing a gasoline or deisel powered generator toprovide electric power until I realized this:We certainly will not be able to rely on the Power Grid as it exists today.Of course, the reason we will not be able to rely on the Power Grid is oncethe transportation and shipping via truck and train is interupted the fuelwill stop moving. Then the oil and coal operated power stations (75% of thePower Grid) will cease operating. They sotre about a 3 week supply ofreserve and thats it. "Where are we going to get gasoline or diesel fuelwhen the fuel stops running"? Do you really think we can store enough forYears? I hope so, but I do not think most of us can.I have an alternative to a gasoline or diesel powered generator. I am inthe process of drawing up a detailed set of plans explaining how to build a12 volt DC battery bank using alternators hooked together to charge them,(these are easily available now and will be after the year 2000) driven bya 40 to 60% replica of a steam engine used about the turn of the century asa power source. Their are companies that build these steam engines(anywhere from 20 - 50 inches long that could provide adequate power usingwood and water to keep a large battery bank charged. Add an inverter and ACpower is available for your use as well.Also I have located a company who manufactures steam driven Tractors (11feet long by 4 feet wide) for those interested in a "workhorse" foragriculture, milling four, sawmill and many other uses.If interested in finding out more information about this concept let meknow and I will go into more detail. I am putting together a Packagedetailing this information.(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=12&Message_ID=12761)General Discussion  Small Business       Tools            Contact the Moderator      Barter         Return to Forums Access Page       Food              Return to Home Page     Nonhybrid     Free Report: "Blind Man's Bluff     Gardening            in the Year 2000"    Relocating